Break Free from the CRO Hamster Wheel: How to Run Tests That Drive Real Growth

Absolutely. While both B2B and B2C are driven by emotion, B2B often has a stronger emotional component. In B2B, the stakes are higher because you’re not just buying a product—you’re putting your reputation on the line. The fear of making the wrong decision or the hope for recognition can significantly impact choices. Understanding these emotions is crucial in B2B marketing because the consequences of failure or success are felt more personally.

Start by diving into review mining and social listening, particularly on platforms like Reddit and Amazon. Reviews are a goldmine for understanding customer fears, frustrations, desires, and even the language they use. Reddit threads, especially those related to your industry, can provide candid, unfiltered insights. Use these sources to build a deep understanding of your audience before testing anything.

The biggest mistake is skipping the research phase. Too often, we jump straight into testing ideas without first understanding our audience. This leads to random tests that yield random results. Instead, invest time in gathering insights and truly understanding your customers’ pain points and desires. This foundation allows you to create tests that are both strategic and impactful.

Experimentation can feel risky, especially if your ideas challenge the status quo. But that fear is often rooted in the unknown. The key is to start small. Test something as simple as a headline in an email or ad. Prove the value of experimentation with low-risk changes before seeking full buy-in from stakeholders. Once you show that it works, you’ll have more support for bigger experiments.

Yes, tactical tests like button colors or CTA copy can still be useful, especially for building confidence early on. However, they only get you so far. They might offer quick wins, but for more meaningful results, you need to go deeper. Combining tactical tests with solid research will help you uncover the true drivers of conversion and give you insights that can fuel long-term success.

That’s actually an advantage! Without a ton of data, you have more freedom to experiment. Use review mining, Reddit, and social listening to get close to your customers and understand their needs. In the early stages, this direct connection with your audience can be your competitive edge. Focus on building empathy and understanding, and let that guide your decisions.

Dana DiTomaso: [00:00:00] Hi everyone. Welcome to the Kick Point Playbook webinar. I am Dana DiTomaso, founder and lead instructor here at Kick Point Playbook, and today I’m joined by one of, honestly, and she’s not paying me to say this, the very best conversion rate optimization people that I know. Talia Wolf, her new book Emotional Targeting is out now.

Dana DiTomaso: It is fantastic. I had the pleasure of being an early beta reader. And honestly it is one of the best books that you will read on conversion rate optimization. You know, I mean, it might be the only book you read on conversion rate optimization, but even if you’ve read other books, I guarantee it’ll be one of the best.

Dana DiTomaso: It definitely made me really think about how we, you know, for our courses and things we do for our clients, like how we put that information into the world. So today she will be walking us through strategies that actually drive growth. I dunno about you, but I’ve done AB testing in the past. You’re like the green button or the blue button.

Dana DiTomaso: It’s no, we’re so beyond that. And so Tally’s gonna walk you through her framework today. I also wanna jump in quickly before we get started, and I wanna remind everyone that we have 50% off our [00:01:00] analytics for agency’s course today. Uh, actually this whole week as a part of our anniversary sale, because it has been two whole years since I published that course originally, which is.

Dana DiTomaso: Absolutely bananas to me in honor. I’ve worn the same shirt that I wore when I recorded analytics for agencies. Since I published it, hundreds of marketers have taken this course, have completely changed how they do analytics, and I always keep the course up to date always in the community. I have the office hours.

Dana DiTomaso: I’m hosting another one tomorrow. So yeah, please sign up if you feel like you’re really struggling at your agency for setting up analytics, and I’m more than thrilled to help you out. All right, so you can go to kb Playbook dot com for details on that. Anyway, back to the webinar. Please make sure to ask questions in the chat.

Dana DiTomaso: We’ll get to those at the end. And if you have to drop out early, we’ll be emailing everyone who registered on LinkedIn, a recording of today’s session. If you’re watching on YouTube, please make sure to hop over to the Kick Point Playbook, LinkedIn page and register, or just message me on LinkedIn and I can definitely help you out.

Dana DiTomaso: And now let’s bring in Talia [00:02:00] and get this rolling. Hey Alia. Hi. How’s it going? Thank you for that intro. Of course. And thank you for coming. I know you know, the world is very big and has lots of time zones, and you are in a very different time zone than me. So yeah, it’s a little bit, uh, I appreciate you staying up late.

Dana DiTomaso: No, for sure. For our audience,

Talia Wolf: I, I’ve been looking forward to this and I’m excited to dive in.

Dana DiTomaso: Awesome. Yeah, and I just wanna say, yeah, please tell us where you’re from in the comments too. We have seen Natasha Allen and Jeremy and yeah. Thank you so much everybody for coming to the webinar today. Alright, cool.

Dana DiTomaso: So let’s get on with the presentation. Here we go. All right,

Talia Wolf: let’s dive in. So today we’re talking about how to escape the conversion optimization hamster wheel which I like to call the deadly hamster wheel of optimization. But we’ll get to that in a moment. So, before we get started, I guess let’s first just quickly talk about.

Talia Wolf: How regular processes of conversion [00:03:00] optimization look like? When we, uh, find a leak in the funnel, we need to create a new variation. Launch an experiment if we have enough traffic and enough conversions, and then we analyze the test. Now, finding a leak in the funnel is easy enough, especially if you’ve taken one of Dana’s courses.

Talia Wolf: ’cause you can go into GA four and figure out, okay, what page isn’t performing? What is the problem? Where, or more precisely where is the problem? It’s on my project page, it’s on my homepage, it’s a landing page. Then launching an experiment if you have the right tools. And the right people, then that is more or less straightforward too.

Talia Wolf: And even analyzing if you have a good analyst. But creating a new variation requires a lot because no one actually tells you, Hey. These are the changes that you need to make in order to increase conversions. It’s kind of a guessing game. We focus [00:04:00] on Googling, trying to reverse engineer some LinkedIn gurus posts, and we don’t actually know what changes to make on a page to increase your conversions.

Talia Wolf: So even if you’ve identified that it’s a product page, you’re still gonna have to figure out. Hey, what changes do I actually need to make on the product page to get incredible results? And what ends up happening is most of us do what Dana hinted at before, which is kind of just duplicating a page and changing one element, like a button color and hoping it will increase conversions.

Talia Wolf: And when that doesn’t work, where we’re kind of left staring into the abyss and wanting to basically just log off because we don’t know what changes to make. And this is where the deadly hamster wheel of optimization comes in. So it starts by testing random things. So we, as I said, like we’ll Google things, we’ll ask AI for best practices.

Talia Wolf: We’ll look at LinkedIn posts and we’ll try and figure out, okay. [00:05:00] What are the best ways to increase conversions on a product page or landing page? And then when that doesn’t work, because we’ve tried it out and it doesn’t increase conversions, we think to ourselves, you know what? I’m going to look at my competitors because they probably know what they’re doing.

Talia Wolf: Right? So what ends up happening is we look at our competitors and we start copying everything that they do. And then what happens is we all start sounding like everyone else. And if you’re being honest for a moment, if you were to swap out your logo with your competitors, one, no one would know because we’re all saying the same thing.

Talia Wolf: We all look the same way. And all the industry, whatever industry you’re in, all people in the same industry just sound and look the same, which makes it. Really hard for people or prospects to understand why they should choose you over your competitor. So once you sound like everyone else and you’re still not getting your [00:06:00] conversions that you want, you think, okay.

Talia Wolf: Let’s use ai. Let’s throw some tools at the problem. You basically hire the most expensive tools. You look at automation, you look at personalization, maybe an AB testing tool, landing page builders. We think that tools and software are going to solve the problem for us. So we spend a. Hours and months and sometimes years onboarding these new products that are state-of-the-art supposed to be incredible, maybe they are and a lot of money on it and training everyone on it.

Talia Wolf: But then you have to start using these tools and if it’s a landing page builder and AB testing platform or an automation platform, you have to come up with ideas to actually test on them. And so you’re back to testing random stuff because there’s no strategy behind it. And the reason this happens, the reason we’re on this uh, deadly hamster wheel of optimization, is because we don’t actually know and understand why [00:07:00] people buy from us and who we’re selling to.

Talia Wolf: Most of us think. That we are selling to very behavioral segments. If I ask you today, Hey, who is your customer? You’ll probably know immediately how old they are, where they’re located, their job title, their gender, their brows, the device that they’re using. We categorize our audiences into behavioral segments, and we start collecting data like we gotta catch ’em.

Talia Wolf: All right? But here’s the thing, 82% of marketers have no confidence in their ability to analyze and use. Data. Data. We have been told to be data driven for so long, we have no idea what to do with that data. And then when I ask my clients or my students, Hey, why do people buy from you? We think it’s to do with ai.

Talia Wolf: We think it’s to do with technology. We think it’s pricing. We think it’s our features. We’re so obsessed with our own product, with our own solution that we end up speaking to the building and not the [00:08:00] person inside. And the key is actually understanding who the person inside is. Now, you may say to me, Talia, yes, this is right, but hey, we now have ai.

Talia Wolf: I could just ask AI to help me create a better landing page or a product page. And here’s the thing. As the world moves into ai, there’s more and more sameness. We all start sounding the same. So let me show you an example. I’ll say, okay, you know what, yes, let’s use ai. So I went into chat two PT and I said, Hey, please outline a landing page for me for a well-known soda drink.

Talia Wolf: The toga audience is this. We sell these kind of things. It’s only this amount of money. It’s only $14, 140 calories. So I entered in all the information that. Us as a collective. We actually collect about our customers all the behavioral data. And Chachi BT said, wonderful. You should use a catchy headline.

Talia Wolf: You should add a subtitle. Don’t forget to [00:09:00] mention you have a limited time promotion and, and don’t forget to highlight the key benefits. And so I created that landing page that Chatt PT said to me. Here is the landing page.

Dana DiTomaso: I love this so much. Honestly, like when I was, so I got, obviously got a sneak preview of this presentation and I laughed out loud, honestly when I got to this page because it’s just a perfect encapsulation of, it’s so boring and it doesn’t, you know, like it’s, it’s Coke as a feeling, not a, because it’s exactly the same as every other sugary soda drink out there in the market.

Dana DiTomaso: But, you know, why do people choose coke over Pepsi feelings And, and I think too, it’s. So I wanna go back actually to a moment when you’re talking about your competitor and how people are like, oh, let’s just copy what our competitor does. Yeah. And Coke and Pepsi are great examples of, like, they don’t, no, they, they always don’t have different feelings in their products.

Dana DiTomaso: The question also, and remember that you’ll never

Talia Wolf: see it, you’ll never see this from, from like, Coca-Cola will never create a online page like this, but [00:10:00] we’re all doing this, we’re all creating these kind of pages.

Dana DiTomaso: Yeah, yeah, totally. And so my question is, is like, why do people think that their competitors know what they’re doing?

Dana DiTomaso: Why are we always convince that? Like, oh, these competitors totally know what’s going on. When the other competitors are like, Ugh, now that other company is what we’re doing, we don’t know what we’re doing. Like, it’s,

Talia Wolf: that’s such a great question. I, I guess I think it, it’s probably a, a mix of if everyone else is doing it, it feels safe.

Talia Wolf: Mm-hmm. Like, you are not taking a risk. And when you are a marketer, you’re taking a lot of risks when you suddenly say, well, we’re gonna go a completely different way than everyone else is, especially if you’re going against giants or bigger competitors than you. So I think it’s, it’s a matter of like deifying your choices.

Talia Wolf: And it’s easier and it’s harder to do the work. Of really identifying those emotions and why people buy from you and creating something more strategic.

Dana DiTomaso: Yep. Totally. That’s [00:11:00] great. Thank you. Anyway, please continue. I just wanted to say I love this slide so much, but Yeah. Well, I, I think it really drives the, the point home, right?

Dana DiTomaso: Like, oh, 100% all

Talia Wolf: of

Dana DiTomaso: us. A

Talia Wolf: boring landing page. Boring landing page. You’ll never see this from Coca-Cola, and yet we’re all creating it because this kind of brings me to the next point, which is we all do think that we make. These rational decisions and that whenever we need to make a decision, we go through this elaborate process of thinking about the pros and the cons and what makes sense.

Talia Wolf: But really, you know, psychologists, neuroscientists, and really the biggest companies in the world know that this isn’t how people make decisions in life. This is every single decision that we make in life is based on emotion, and this is science. Just in case you’re watching this right now and you’re like, well, okay, this is fluffy marketing, Talia.

Talia Wolf: Like of course if I’m in B2C, people buy watches on emotion, but just, I, I just really want to, [00:12:00] to explain this isn’t just a nice to have. Tactic. This is real science. So Antonio Damasio, who is a professor of psychology and neuroscience, actually ran an incredible research study on people that have brain damage.

Talia Wolf: And the particular brain damage that they have is they cannot feel any kind of emotion. So what he uncovered is that these people could go about their daily lives and do everything just like everyone else, but they had one big problem they couldn’t make. Any decision in life, not even what sandwich to get.

Talia Wolf: He actually concluded that without emotions, we lack the ability to make any kind of decision. So again, if you’re like sitting there and saying, okay, yeah, emotion is nice to have, I’m here to tell you emotion is critical. It’s the foundation of everything, and if you don’t understand what are the emotions that are driving people to buy from you, this is why you’re not getting the conversions that you want.

Talia Wolf: Again, just in case you’re like, well, [00:13:00] okay, it works in B2C, just here’s something you should know. Think of Google ran a research and it I, and it found out that B2B purchases are 50% more likely to buy a product when they see personal value for themselves. It’s nothing to do with the product itself, and they’re eight times more likely to buy a more.

Talia Wolf: Expensive product if they see personal value. Now, what is personal value for a B2B purchaser? It’s that promotion that they’re hoping to get. It’s being seen as the go-to in the office. There are a lot of emotions involved. I would argue even more in B2B, but really companies everywhere. Are completely ignoring this and are, and when we need to optimize our funnels, we forget this.

Talia Wolf: So I’m here to also remind you that almost every single search includes emotion. So as an example, this is also asked one of my favorite tools in the world where you. Enter a keyword, maybe the keyword that people use the most to find you [00:14:00] and it shows you what other, what else other people search for when they use this keyword.

Talia Wolf: So what is the simplest accounting software for small businesses? Can I do my own accounting for small business and also asks. Shows you all this other stuff, and you’ll notice that almost every single search here includes some sort of emotion. Can I do this myself? Do I really have to have this? Is this, is this safe?

Talia Wolf: Can I do this or not? But then when you look at the landing pages for this, for accounting software, it’s all your business on one platform. Simple, effective, affordable. Automate your invoice management today, or My favorite, the UK’s favorite tax filing software. I mean, is it really, how do you, how do you know?

Talia Wolf: Do you

Dana DiTomaso: wake up every morning, you’re like, this is my favorite tax filing software. I’m gonna wake up and grab my phone and look at the UK’s favorite tax filing software.

Talia Wolf: It’s nuts, right? But it’s, there’s, it’s crazy to me because there’s a huge emotional gap. Here’s what prospects are, are [00:15:00] literally saying, can I do this myself?

Talia Wolf: Can I stop worrying about this? How do I know this is for me? And the companies are saying, we’re an all in one platform. We’re powered by ai. It’s, you know, we’re the number one solution and we’re all doing it in every single industry no matter what. We’re all doing this. And there’s a huge emotional gap.

Talia Wolf: So. We really need to start thinking about who we’re selling to and how your prospects actually make buying decisions. They’re thinking about will people see me as the go-to? Will I feel more confident? Will I get a career advancement? Will I finally stop, uh, worrying about this? Will I get promoted? Will I feel better about myself?

Talia Wolf: At the end of the day. When you understand people’s emotional drivers, why they buy, you can optimize your website, your funnels, your landing pages, your emails, your ads, everything around these emotions. And let me just clarify. We’re not trying to trigger any emotions. These are the underlying emotions that people are [00:16:00] coming with to your website.

Talia Wolf: They’re already feeling them. And if you’re not addressing them, that’s where you lose the sale or the lead. So once you start using emotion, that’s when you can get those incredible results. And usually this is the point where people say to me, okay, Talia, you’ve been doing this for 15 years. Just tell us what are the most common emotions.

Talia Wolf: So there isn’t one common emotion. There are clusters of emotions which means groups of. Emotions that affect us in certain ways. The first cluster of emotions that is one of the most, uh, repeatable one that happens all the time that really affects people’s decisions is self image. How people want to feel about themselves after finding a solution and converting.

Talia Wolf: So they wanna feel effective, meaningful, valuable, smart, happy. Uh, it’s all about how. How I’m going to be better at something, how I’m going to feel better. So for example, Shopify doesn’t sell [00:17:00] software. It sells the dream of entrepreneurship. Your mom should be your first customer, not your only customer.

Talia Wolf: So it’s all about that kind of yeah, like how are you going to feel about yourself, you’re successful. The second cluster of emotion is social image. And social image, I would say is even. More substantial when it comes to purchasing decisions, especially in B2B. Uh, and that’s how we want other people to feel about us and think about us after we’ve purchased a decision, uh, a decision, a product, or a solution.

Talia Wolf: Uh, I want them to look up to me. I wanna feel admired. I wanna be envied, I wanna feel altruistic. I want people to see me as, you know, the go-to person in the office. And we talked about this before, Dana. You know, IBM has always been seen as like the no risk product, and they understood that, right?

Talia Wolf: They understood mm-hmm that people are worried when they’re buying product. So nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. It’s like the safe. Even,

Dana DiTomaso: even if it didn’t go great, they still, it was [00:18:00] like, you know what? It went okay. And sometimes Okay. Is just fine. Yeah. And I think of I mean of course we both know April Dunford and her fantastic books, but if, if people haven’t read Sales Pitch by April Dunford, it’s great.

Dana DiTomaso: And one of the things in the beginning of the book, she talks about going to go buy a toilet and how it’s so difficult to go to the toilet store and decide what toilet to buy, even though you’ve used a toilet every day of your life. One hopes, you know, it’s still difficult to go and be like, yeah, which toilet do I need?

Dana DiTomaso: Because it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s just, and and the default choice is like not doing anything. So yeah, I do have to do something, I guess. Okay. I guess we’ll hire IBM ’cause nobody ever got fired for them. But that’s because they set themselves up as that safe, dependable choice. And they can say to people, oh, you’re working with IBM?

Dana DiTomaso: Oh, that project’s gonna go great. Yes, that’s, you know, that feeling of comfort.

Talia Wolf: I and I, I would say that my favorite b to be ad of all times is this. Oh

Dana DiTomaso: yeah, this is a good one. Yeah.

Talia Wolf: I, I would say that if, [00:19:00] if you are watching this right now and you’re like, oh, what is this? You’re too young. Shut down the computer.

Talia Wolf: Go away. Just go away or like educate yourself. This is the, the Epic split by van down. Mm-hmm. And, and here’s the thing. This is an ad for trucks, okay. Or lorries, depending on where you’re from. This is an ad for trucks. This ad cost three to $4 million to produce. And essentially what it was made for, which is incredible, is to show the stability of these trucks.

Talia Wolf: And they generated $170 million in revenue after this ad by simply showing Van Damm doing the splits. On on these trucks. A 31% uplift in sales from the splits. And it’s just an incredible example of using emotion in B2B to make you feel like, okay, this is the safe way, this is the good thing. And like, I can go with this, right?

Talia Wolf: And it’s, it’s definitely [00:20:00] social image for sure. Like I’m driving the truck that then dam did the splits on. So it’s just an incredible example. But let’s bring this back to CRO. Let’s bring this back to actual, like practicalities. Okay. The tactical conversion optimization process, which is, I’m gonna call it your old way of doing stereo, it was data analysis.

Talia Wolf: So, okay, we need to increase conversions on my product page. Then you create a variation. So you come up with a list of changes that could maybe, hopefully optimize the page. You don’t an experiment, maybe it succeeds and it increases conversions. Great. Maybe it doesn’t, and if it doesn’t, you’re like, Ugh, fail.

Talia Wolf: Ugh. Bummer. Okay. The new customer first process for CRO, which I want you to start using from today is starting with customer thirst research, which means not finding the page that’s a problem, and then googling for best practices. It’s identifying why people buy from you and where [00:21:00] the problem is. So why is.

Talia Wolf: Why are people coming to your website? What was going on in their life that made you made them look for a solution like yours? How do they feel right now? How do they want to feel after finding a solution? Is it social image? Is it self-image? Is it something else? And then identifying the problem, and this is the missing piece, and we’ll get into this in a moment.

Talia Wolf: Actually running an audit on your website based on all your insights to uncover what’s preventing people from converting. Because when you know why people are buying from you, it’s so much easier to look at your pages and go, oh, we’re saying the wrong things. Well, highlighting the wrong stuff. We’re writing stories that no one cares about.

Talia Wolf: We’ve got social proof that just. Doesn’t make sense. It’s so much easier when you go research first, auditing second, and then you launch an experiment. If you increase conversions, it’s great, and [00:22:00] if you don’t, it’s still great because you learn so much about your audience and you have. A great hypothesis to work with.

Talia Wolf: So customer research, first interviews, surveys, social listening, review, mining, really digging into why are people buying from you, uncovering that why. And then you can run a strategic audit. And that means uncovering the real gaps, really un understanding why people aren’t converting. Now, usually when I talk about A CRO audit, we think about it as like, okay, go into GA four.

Talia Wolf: Run a heuristic analysis, check, keep, map and recordings. Compare a best, uh, against our best practices and create a list of AB testing ideas. Now. I’m not saying you don’t have to do this. You definitely have to do a GA four analysis. You have to run a heuristic analysis. You have to look at heat maps and recordings, and you definitely have to create a list of ideas.

Talia Wolf: But the biggest [00:23:00] missing piece here is the strategic. Audit. A strategic CRO audit is a set of questions that you ask yourself to identify why people aren’t converting. And it really helps you understand what’s not working on the page because again, just staring at a landing page and hoping the ideas will suddenly form.

Talia Wolf: I mean, you created a landing page, you are happy with it. It’s not performing. You’re not suddenly gonna look at a page and go, oh. It’s not good. So you have to ask yourself a set of questions in order to identify if it’s converting or not and why, and what the problems are. So let’s dive into those questions.

Talia Wolf: Question number one is, are you making it about yourself or about the customer? This is the first question to ask. Hey, are you talking about your product, your solution, your features, your technology, your pricing, or are you making it about the customer? And I’ll show you an example. This is Strata an incredible client of ours.

Talia Wolf: We [00:24:00] absolutely love working with them. They have an ID identity orchestration software, and this was the original homepage. It essentially described what they do. This is the product. Once we did our research and we uncovered. Who’s buying from them, why they buy from them and what pain they’re trying to solve.

Talia Wolf: We could create this new variation that said, make molten identity work everywhere. Uh, you don’t have to understand identity orchestration to see the difference between. The control and the variation with the control is completely focused on the product, and the variation is focused on helping people, identifying what they need, answering their questions, and making the content about them.

Talia Wolf: By positioning the whole page, the whole homepage about them, we were able to increase their conversions, but it was more than that. It just helped drive more engagement and people connected with the brand even more. So one of the most important questions that you can ask yourself today [00:25:00] is okay. Where, what am I doing?

Talia Wolf: Am I talking, is everything about me, about our solution, about our software, about our service? Or are we actually connecting the dots for people and showing them that this product was made for them? So this is question number one. You would be asking yourself.

Dana DiTomaso: Yeah. And I just wanna say too about strata too, like that was actually a client we sent to you.

Dana DiTomaso: Yes. Because we set up their analytics and we worked with them on an SEO plan and it was like, yeah, we can drive you all the traffic in the world, but if it’s not converting, uh, and it was so interesting to see that evolution because yeah, everything was so focused and, and trying to understand what identity orchestration was like, I’m pretty nerdy, but that’s like at the limit of where my nerdom ends and, yep.

Dana DiTomaso: A lot of these companies are very focused on, look at our cool technology, not like we are here to solve your problem. And just that change in organic search conversions. Like it shows to me that like we were totally driving, like the plan that we put together [00:26:00] drove the right traffic to them. The pages weren’t connecting because if you also weren’t driving the right traffic in the first place, you wouldn’t have had that massive increase in conversions.

Dana DiTomaso: They were just speaking the right language and just like, just a complete turnaround for them in terms of the number of conversions they were getting. It was so good to see from the. Yeah, so we set everything up. We were like, talk to Talia, have fun. Off we go. And yeah, just, just fantastic results.

Talia Wolf: Yeah. Uh, I agree.

Talia Wolf: I mean, I think it was a really good you know, collaboration because we knew that they were getting good traffic and we knew that the right people were coming to their website. And again, I think when it comes to these kind of, and this is why. I kind of put this as the first example ’cause the rest of the examples are probably easier for us to identify with.

Talia Wolf: But I use this boring product as an example because, and I say boring ’cause you know I don’t want, yeah. But like a lot of the times we feel like when it comes to B2B, we have to be very like. Direct, straightforward and look how fancy

Dana DiTomaso: we are. You know, you should obviously, ’cause we’re like a [00:27:00] serious company doing serious things,

Talia Wolf: right?

Talia Wolf: But funnily enough, one of the most thing, one of the biggest things that hit home with this was we identified the identity hero and all of our content. So this is just an example actually of their homepage, but we did, uh, their ads creative. We did product pages, we did recipes for them, social proof.

Talia Wolf: We actually did a billboard for them at some point. But it was all around becoming the identity hero of your company. Mm-hmm. And it was so incredible because you think like a hero journey, but yes, it was, it was incredible to just see that transition and how everything in their marketing, like people started recognizing them at conferences and it’s just, it’s super cool.

Talia Wolf: Okay, so that was question number one. Question number two is, can prospects see their pains reflected in every step of the journey? So, when we create content, a lot of the times we’re like, okay, here’s the big promise, and come and convert with us. And really, [00:28:00] uh, funnily enough, this is a social media examiner.

Talia Wolf: They have the biggest social media conference in the world. It is incredible. It’s in San Diego. And they engaged us in 2019 to help them increase their ticket sales for their conference. Uh, very different product, right? Uh, and you can see, discover the best social media marketing techniques from the world’s top experts.

Talia Wolf: So this is a cool promise, right? Like, okay, I’m gonna learn all these techniques and I’m gonna. Understand, uh, I’m gonna meet all these top experts and it says the best expert speakers in the industry and all the names, and there’s still really cool names, and they’re like Amy Porterfield and Jay there.

Talia Wolf: What we did is we did our research and we uncovered that their biggest pain for social media moist is they feel overwhelmed. And funnily enough, 2025, they are still. Overwhelmed because new platforms arise every day. Techniques, strategies, tools, everything changes every single day. Like it is so hard to keep up.

Talia Wolf: And they were [00:29:00] feeling the burn. So we actually, this was a, a 2000 word page and we a blog post and we turned it, we, we expanded it even more and we added a whole section that described their pains. And kind of explained, Hey, this is how you could feel designed for you, the marketing professional, if you’re struggling to keep up with the ever-changing nature of social media marketing.

Talia Wolf: And we said, imagine keeping up with the important trends and knowing exactly how to successfully implement this stuff. Imagine getting 10 XROI imagine having all the wisdom you need to support every marketing decision, forming relationships, getting, having complete confidence in everything that you do.

Talia Wolf: We connected to their pains and spelled out the stuff that we knew that they were struggling with. And this is the difference between making just the promises that are about, okay, here’s this incredible product, or the incredible conference you can come to and more about, look. We’ve created something [00:30:00] and we know exactly what your pains are.

Talia Wolf: We know what we struggle with every day. We know what you’ve tried before, it doesn’t work, and here is something that will work for you. So one of the biggest questions you should ask yourself is, are you even addressing their pains? And I’m not talking about. Do they have a report? Like if you have a software and you’re like, create reports easily, that’s not a pain.

Talia Wolf: The pain is not knowing if you’re profitable or not and having to sift through mountains of data sheets to understand if, Hey, am I actually profitable this month? So understanding the real pain behind the purchase and why they’re on your website and ask yourself, are you doing that on the page? That’s question number two.

Talia Wolf: Okay. Question number three. Do your design UX, colors and images all support, improve your main message? So, copy always comes first, but it’s not enough. You have to support everything with your design. Everything has to [00:31:00] amplify your message. So for example, uh, this is upright, a training posture, a posture trainer.

Talia Wolf: Uh, it’s super cool. It’s this size. You place it on your back and every time you slouch it basically vibrates and reminds you to sit up straight. I’ve tried it, love it. Not an affiliate, just an incredible product for people like us who sit in front of a,

Dana DiTomaso: you know, computer all day long. Yeah, I absolutely set up a little bit straighter when you put this on the screen, like right.

Dana DiTomaso: I should probably not slouch

Talia Wolf: quite so much. That’s so funny. Don’t know because. Every time I show this on stage at a conference. So you imagine like thousands of people. And I always like, suddenly everyone sits up straight and the,

Dana DiTomaso: and the audience. So they’re like all pretzels beforehand. They’re like, oh no,

Talia Wolf: the collective like, oh, shifting.

Talia Wolf: So hopefully everyone at home just did that too.

Dana DiTomaso: Mm-hmm.

Talia Wolf: Mm-hmm. But it’s a great posture trainer. But here, look at these, these kind of common mistakes. The world’s number one posture trainer. Cool. I agree. But someone who’s purchased it, who hasn’t purchased it yet, doesn’t know, Hmm. I don’t know if they agree [00:32:00] with you.

Talia Wolf: And this person does not reflect me as a person who’s sensitive front of the computer all day long. So when we did our research, we decided to create a new product page and said, look, transform your posture, eliminate pain, build healthy habits at loss. And actually. Put an image of the person who looks like us, who identifies like us, who works in front of a computer all day, and we’re able to show, not just tell, so it’s not enough to just say, look, we’re gonna transform everything.

Talia Wolf: Everything’s gonna be great for you. It’s great to have that good messaging, but everything on the page from the colors that you use, the ux, the images have to reflect that and amplify it. Too. So that’s really important. And a lot of the times we’re just using like stamp standalone images that don’t support the text.

Talia Wolf: And sometimes they even make it worse because it’s so distracting. It looks cool. Everyone’s using, uh, kind of dynamic tabs or carousels or like beautiful videos, but they’re not actually helping [00:33:00] people read, consume, and understand the content. And that’s a big question that you should be asking yourself is, Hey, am I using images that actually amplify?

Talia Wolf: What I do and what I’m saying. Okay. Are you highlighting the outcomes that prospects care about? I think that one of the things that we tend to do is we make these big promises, but there’s something that we think people want and they’re not what people actually want, what all prospects want. So just as an example, our, a client who is a moving company, uh, wrote, you know, long distance moving, uh, distance moving with no hidden costs.

Talia Wolf: You would think that okay. Yeah, no hidden costs. That’s a pain, that’s a pros, that’s an outcome that people want. But actually we did our research. Actually no, moving is super stressful. I did it two years ago. I’m never moving outta my house, so it’s stressful. And we changed the copy and the imagery and everything around it to take the stress out of your next move across state lines.

Talia Wolf: So making it really about the outcomes that [00:34:00] people care about. So the question should be. Am I actually promising something people want and, and that you can find out with your research. So that’s super important. Can a prospect immediately see the connection between the action they need to take and the emotional outcome.

Talia Wolf: So I’ll show you upright again. Uh, it says Shop GoTo, which is their product upright, go to meet the post posture trainer. You know, it uses biofeedback. So we’ve got like, okay, here’s this product. And then it says just shop the go-to. We, uh, one of the things that we uncovered when we did our research for upright was that most of us want to fix our, our posture.

Talia Wolf: None of us want to slouch, okay? We all start out the day promising ourselves that today we’ll work on our posture, but throughout the day we forget. Everyone does. And there was a lot of guilt. We interviewed dozens of people and almost every single person said, I always forget. I keep forgetting. I feel guilty.

Talia Wolf: I should know this by now. I [00:35:00] should work on my posture. Why do I sit this way? So one of the things that we did is we actually added content about it and we said, look, make your posture the one thing. You don’t have to think about it ’cause you’re outsourcing it to the, to upright shop. Now what you’re promising.

Talia Wolf: The action that they need to take to get that promise. So you always need to make that connection, and that’s a great question to ask yourself while you’re kind of auditing your pages. When you’re asking someone to take an action, is it clear what they’re actually going to get? Is it just start free trial?

Talia Wolf: Or is there a connection to their desired outcome? And do they know what’s going to happen? Are you promising emotional outcomes that your customers actually want? I think one of my favorite examples is from Wiser, which is a great tool for teachers and schools to create, uh, interactive worksheets.

Talia Wolf: And it said, amaze your students with small to worksheets. When we worked with them, it was the height of COVID and it was [00:36:00] interesting that hey, teachers could care less. About amazing their students. What they care about, uh, was getting their time back, was being able to not work around the clock as a teacher from Zoom online and, and just the, you know, missing all sorts of family dinners because they were so.

Talia Wolf: Overwhelmed. So it says create forgettable unforgettable worksheets that grade themselves. So here’s a promise, like you won’t have to work hard, win your time back, and overwhelming and late night prep with fun. Easy to make interactive worksheets that students love. So everything about them, what they’re looking for.

Talia Wolf: And then, uh. Again, when it comes to your features and what you’re promising. So smartphone controlled paper, airplane describing the product. Power up your ideas with one of our lightweight, yet powerful propellers. Explore the limits of aerodynamics. The difference between saying, okay, here’s what we are, here’s what we have, [00:37:00] and here’s what you’re going to get.

Talia Wolf: These are the results. So all of these are questions that you can ask yourself, but I, I will guarantee that the last question is probably the funniest one, but maybe like. Weird because I would say, Hey, are you using relevant and helpful social proof? Everyone of course we’re using social proof. We have the logo bar, we have those testimonials.

Talia Wolf: Everyone says we’re incredible. But most of it I would say is generic. For example, for upright, it was love the new design, very apple-like product. This is about the product. The social proof here doesn’t help people. And here’s the thing about social proof. Social proof should be used to help dismantle concerns and hesitations that people have before buying from you.

Talia Wolf: Everyone knows that we’re going to use social proof, that’s just a given, but are you using it correctly? So. It helped take at least 10 years off my appearance or this device [00:38:00] has been life-changing for me. I’m in good shape, but off to 10 years of sitting in a desk, my posture has deteriorated. So actually ask providing social proof that can help people.

Talia Wolf: Make a good decision because no one really cares about the new design or that it looks like an Apple product. That’s like the last thing on their list. They’re asking themselves like, does this actually work? Is it a gimmick? And that’s where this real authentic social proof comes in. So my question to you again is, how many did you want to No to?

Talia Wolf: If you’re thinking out loud, most of us probably said no to most of it because we’re not thinking about this stuff and that’s fine. But when you’re thinking about optimizing. You want to run meaningful experiments. Meaningful experiments means you’re not testing buttons, you’re testing strategic things like all these questions that I just asked you because successful conversion optimization programs, they answer critical business questions about your customers and your.[00:39:00]

Talia Wolf: They are informing your entire marketing strategy. They’re not, they’re not a tactic. It’s not just a nice to have. When you run good experiments, your whole team is using these tests to inform their ads, their content, the blog, uh, the emails that you’re sending. So good. Zero programs. Also, he help break silos between.

Talia Wolf: Marketing, sales product and they’re really helping people in the whole organization. So I wanna give you two emotion-based tests that you can run to make it super simple and easy to get started with. The first one is current pain versus desired emotional outcomes. So the current pain is how are they feeling right now?

Talia Wolf: What is their frustration? What is their thing that’s keeping them up at night versus the emotional outcome that they’re hoping to get? So Basecamp had an incredible, uh, campaign a while ago. It said, we’ve been expecting you all, all growing businesses run into the same fundamental problems, hair on fire, buried under [00:40:00] email stuff everywhere.

Talia Wolf: The good news Basecamp solves them. This is current pain, right? Here’s their emotional outcome. This is where it all comes together. Basecamp’s project management platform helps small teams move faster and make more prospects than they’ve ever thought possible. So you can see the difference between making it about their pain and making it about the desired outcome.

Talia Wolf: If you are thinking, okay, I’m sold Talia, I wanna start using emotion. How do I do this? How do I run more meaningful experiments? This is one great test that you can run. And start looking into identifying their biggest pains. Desired outcomes and seeing what resonates most. Now, you don’t have to do a complete redesign.

Talia Wolf: You can even start with an email. Write one email that’s focused on their pain, one email that’s focused on their desired outcomes, and see what creates more engagement, what drives more conversions. So that’s test number one. Test number two, solution focused versus customer [00:41:00] focused. So a lot of the times I talk about this and everyone’s like, okay, but I don’t, I don’t know how to sell this internally.

Talia Wolf: So running a quick test that’s like very specific here. This was the original homepage of get up of upright, get upright to improve your posture, shop healthy posture. This was, this is what the product is. Shop now, right? And this is very solution focused. We created a new variation that said, look, this is the simplest way to transform your posture.

Talia Wolf: We’ve been helping 750,000 people sit down and feel better every day. Customer focused, solution focused, running small tests like these, not even on the homepage, in ads, in email copy, in blog posts, and seeing what connects more when you talk about your product or when you talk about your customers. So conversion optimization isn’t about changing elements on the page, it’s about solving people’s problems.

Talia Wolf: And if I leave you with anything today, it is that [00:42:00] reality sucks. And it’s our job as marketers and solution providers to create something that’s a little, to make our lives a little easier and help people actually solve their problems. So when you’re thinking about testing and when you’re thinking about your next experimentation, I want you to think about customer first, about how you can solve your customer’s problems and really get them to where they need to go and address their emotional needs and their outcomes that they desire.

Talia Wolf: That’s it for me today. You can get some resources and my book that Dana mentioned on this QR code I feel like I’m way over time.

Dana DiTomaso: No, no, you’re good, you’re good. I interrupted. There was questions, so Yeah, no, you’re, you’re fine. So. Thank you and, and FYI, everyone who registered on LinkedIn today is also going to get, uh, a download of your toolkit as well via email.

Dana DiTomaso: So if you don’t see that tomorrow, uh, definitely DM me on LinkedIn and let me know. So thank you so [00:43:00] much for sharing that toolkit with us and the book again. So good. Obviously we got the Kohl’s notes version of it today, or what do they call it in the uk? I think it’s something different than Kohl’s notes.

Dana DiTomaso: But anyway, cliff notes. Cliff Notes. Sure. That’s maybe that’s the American version in Canada. They’re Kohl’s notes. I don’t know what to I know. Do you know?

Talia Wolf: Yeah. I only knew that from Gia. She was like, you should create a Cole Notes. I’m like, what notes? What are Kohl’s notes? Okay. I

Dana DiTomaso: know. And then I only realized later, I’m like, does no one else know what Cole CliffNotes?

Dana DiTomaso: There’s a, yeah. Every country has their own version of the abridged, et cetera. So. Alright, so please make sure to ask questions in the chat. We’re gonna get to a few of the questions that people have asked now. So. First one from Alan. This was great. Do you see a difference between emotional selling content for B2C versus B2B?

Dana DiTomaso: He asked this right before you got into that B2C versus B2C section. Mm. He’s dealing with oil and gas and different from your doctor and dentist. Yeah. Oil and gas. What a throw ride.

Talia Wolf: I. I will say this, most of all work is with B2B companies. [00:44:00] And I would argue, and I I think I hinted at this before, I would argue that when you make, when you’re making a B2B decision, especially in oil and gas it’s a lot harder because when you’re just buying something for yourself, you only have yourself or maybe your significant other to kind of tu when you’re buying.

Talia Wolf: A service, a product, or anything that’s for a business. There’s so much take into consideration and to think of and emotionally that is scary. So unless you are the CEO who’s also burdened by a lot of decisions and emotions in their purchasing decision, I would say that B2B is even more emotional, and you should definitely invest in it, Alan.

Dana DiTomaso: Mm-hmm. Thank you. What research techniques do you recommend for uncovering customer motivations? So you talked about talking to customers, but what, uh, what do you do? Yeah,

Talia Wolf: so, I would say that my, there’s a lot of go-tos, right? We have. Customer interviews, we have customer surveys, visitor surveys to uncover why [00:45:00] people are on your website.

Talia Wolf: But even just to get started, one of my favorite thing is review mining. Review mining is the alt of mining reviews that your competitors are getting, or similar products and services, uh, that are trying to solve the same problem as you, the reviews that they’re getting. And what I mean by that is I learned this from Joanna Weeb.

Talia Wolf: Queen of conversion copywriting.

Dana DiTomaso: Mm-hmm.

Talia Wolf: Essentially what you would do is, let’s say you’re selling accounting software. It’s one of my favorite examples. Go onto Amazon, look for Accounting for Dummies, the book Accounting for Dummies, and download all those reviews that they’re getting and ask yourself, what are people complaining about?

Talia Wolf: What are people, what do people miss in this book? What are the things that they loved that make them feel great, that they felt like, oh, this is exactly what I’m looking for. These are the people that should be using your accounting software and they’re buying this book so you can mine. So much of this conversation, of these [00:46:00] conversations.

Talia Wolf: The other thing I would say is Reddit obviously the most important thing. Uh, Reddit has managed to position itself as the place for authentic conversations. No matter what you’re selling, seriously, no matter what you’re selling, authentic conversations about your product and your competitors. Are being, are happening on Reddit right now.

Talia Wolf: And you should be that fly on the wall reading through all of Reddit’s conversations. And Reddit now has a new tool called Reddit ounces. So you could even put in some keywords or a question and it would show you all the threads that have mentioned that. So that is the number one thing I would do is just.

Talia Wolf: Look at all the conversations that are happening there. And again, you’re looking for the pains that people are mentioning, the hesitations, what they like, what they don’t like, what they wish existed. And you can then highlight that in your copy, in your visuals and everything that you create. And

Dana DiTomaso: this is actually a great use case as well for AI because once you have those pieces, feed into ai, [00:47:00] ask for the common themes, ask for the common threads, especially for something like, I can only imagine how many reviews Accounting for Dummies has, you know, but that way you’re not dealing with going through this stuff manually.

Dana DiTomaso: This is exactly the kind of thing AI was meant for, for sure. Yeah. Okay, great. Amy asks, what’s the biggest mistake you see businesses making when they start optimizing their website for conversions? I’m sure you’ve seen some accidents.

Talia Wolf: Yeah, I think I would go back to, uh, the hamster wheel of optimization.

Talia Wolf: When we start optimizing, the biggest mistake that we make is we dive straight into kind of just identifying. Where the problem is, but not spending enough time on why the problem is happening, and that’s where we get on the hamster wheel. We Google best practices, we copy our competitors. We try and use tools to solve the problem.

Talia Wolf: But what you should be doing, the biggest mistake is, is you should be actually getting to know your customers better. You should run much more [00:48:00] meaningful research to understand why they buy from you so that you can run meaningful experiments. Because once you kind of skip that part. You’re essentially giving yourself a really hard time and you’re not gonna get the results that you want.

Talia Wolf: So that’s, I would say, the biggest mistake. And yeah, copying competitors is definitely up there too.

Dana DiTomaso: Yes, please don’t do that. All right. Got a few more questions here from Anne. Why do you think companies today are afraid to take the risk of experimentation?

Talia Wolf: That’s a great question. I think the question back to you, Anne, is when you say companies.

Talia Wolf: Who do you mean? Because inside a company, inside an organization, there’s a lot of different people, and I don’t wanna get too meta, but the people who are running experimentation programs, the people they have to answer to, the people they have to deliver reports to, uh, the people they have to work with, uh, all have emotions to.

Talia Wolf: So when you are thinking about running an experimentation program, that can be daunting, that can be scary. You don’t know how people are [00:49:00] going to respond to your ideas, especially when it comes to trying to sell a different way than all the gurus are saying, well just change the button or reduce a form field that will work.

Talia Wolf: So I think there’s a lot of risk, uh, for people and I think that, uh, one of the best. Even though you didn’t ask for that, but one of my best tips for people who are afraid to take the risk of experimenting is starting small. And that’s why I always kind of mention like ads or emails because you don’t need fancy tools and you don’t need like a whole redesign of anything.

Talia Wolf: You can just start small and show look. We tried the subject line. We tried this email. This email was just about pain and what they’re feeling, and so many people clicked through. So many people signed up for this webinar. So many people asked for more information. We sent an email about the product, but no one really opened it.

Talia Wolf: No one really responded. So that’s where I would start too.

Dana DiTomaso: Yeah, that’s great. Alan, [00:50:00] back again, is there a list of tactics you recommend for market research this new way? Like your review audit, and what are you doing with Reddit that is in your book? So I assume you cover this in your book. Yeah, so

Talia Wolf: I cover all research methods in my book.

Talia Wolf: There is a bunch in there, there’s bonus ones, and I’ve categorized them as if you have customers. Here’s all the research you should be doing. If you’re just getting started, you don’t have a lot of customers. Here’s all the research you should be doing. There’s a lot in there about review mining and Reddit, of course.

Talia Wolf: And there’s a lot in there about social listening, so anything to do with LinkedIn, uh, Facebook conversations, Quora, uh, information there about how to run interviews, what questions to ask, how to actually conduct meaningful surveys, because you should not be asking why did you come here today? Uh, you should be asking like.

Talia Wolf: Real important, uh, meaningful questions. So all of that is in my book. Of course. I couldn’t get into all of that today, unfortunately. But yes,

Dana DiTomaso: read the book. It’s not expensive, I assure you. And it’s also available for like your e-reader. So [00:51:00] I, I am a Cobo person. I’m not an, uh, an Amazon person, but I have it on my e-reader ’cause I do, uh, especially on travel.

Dana DiTomaso: So much easier to tote around an e-reader than an actual physical book. True. Yeah. All right, Josh. SEO moving into CRO. Oh, good luck, Josh. Is it okay to get started running small tests like button colors or headlines while continuing to research voice a customer? Thank

Talia Wolf: you for your question, Josh.

Talia Wolf: Wonderful question. Here’s what I wanna say. Of course you should. Before running meaningful deep, big tests, you should start with the basics. There are some foundational, uh, things that every website has to have, and. You definitely need to start there. You should start by making sure that you have one button above the fold, that you have a clear, unique selling proposition that you don’t have a carousel.

Talia Wolf: Sorry, I’m an anti carousel person.

Dana DiTomaso: Uh, no, that’s fair. Carousels don’t, don’t work as, as someone who’s tested clicks on carousels for years and years and [00:52:00] years, no one clicks on them. Stop it.

Talia Wolf: Unfortunately, I did. We did run a test for one of our clients last year who. Really wanted a carousel and it won and it got me.

Talia Wolf: Oh,

Dana DiTomaso: no,

Talia Wolf: no. But generally, but generally I would say, so there’s, there are. Okay. So

Dana DiTomaso: except for that person, they suck. Yes. There you go.

Talia Wolf: Everything else sucks. There are foundational things that you need to do, and especially if you’re just getting started, by all means, test buttons, test form fields, test smaller things.

Talia Wolf: A to get buy-in from people and b, so that you feel more confident as long as you are. Really building yourself the foundation. Because I think what happens a lot of the times is you do, yeah, like you’ll start testing, uh, button colors, but the more tests you run that are tactical, the less results you get, the more.

Talia Wolf: Disheartening it gets, mm-hmm. And I know this sounds funny, but like you get tired of just running stuff and not getting any results, and I don’t want you to lose the faith in experimentation. So that’s why I think running a [00:53:00] meaningful CRO program is so important. And having the person who drives, uh, that research and strategy and helps you kind of implement it is important.

Dana DiTomaso: Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, people have been asking for the link to the book and the comment. So, uh, it’s at Get get Uplift do co slash book, but we’re gonna toss that in there as well. Uh, and it will also be in the replay email that you get. So, yes. Gotta gotta read the book. All right, last question then we’re done.

Dana DiTomaso: What now, Elena’s question cut off, but the first part of it, what advice would you give to a startup slash new business? You’re brand new, you’re just getting out there. You don’t have previous day to rely on. What do you do?

Talia Wolf: Well, a hundred percent social listening and review mining, that would be the first thing.

Talia Wolf: So, you have, I know it sounds funny, but being a startup and bootstrapped or whatever, like small new business, you can move faster than the giants. You can do meaningful research. Sometimes it’s enough to mine good [00:54:00] conversations to have. You can reach your audience so much quicker and easily. So I would definitely invest in doing meaningful customer research and spending more time on that.

Talia Wolf: I would also invest in Reddit a lot being there, answering people’s questions, helping people out on Reddit and reading those conversations.

Dana DiTomaso: Yeah, I gotta say about Reddit and here’s the link to the book for people as well. So I post on the GA four sub Reddit quite a bit, and I started posting longer tutorials on there, and then I got banned from it.

Dana DiTomaso: Oh, so you also gotta watch out too, because the person who owns that subreddit is a competitor of Kick Point Playbook, and so that’s why he cut me off from it. There’s a different GA four subreddit now that people are using instead. So you also need to be careful too, with some subreddits because sometimes they are owned by, uh, individuals who are not interested in letting you.

Dana DiTomaso: It reminds me of, do you remember dms? This might have been before you got into industry. Back in the early days, like Prego, there was this directory called dms, and it was one of the things that Google built their [00:55:00] first like index off of, and it was just a curated list of websites that people could go to and becoming the editor of your.

Dana DiTomaso: So I would become like the editor of Web Analytics, for example. And then I could control all the links that were in this directory. And like Yahoo, who used it for example. And so it was this huge competitive advantage if you could own that section. And Reddit kind of feels like it’s turning into that now as well, where people are like, I’m the moderator.

Dana DiTomaso: I can control who shares on here. So,

Talia Wolf: well, I got a, I have to give a, a shout out to Ross Simmons then. If we’re talking about Reddit. Ross is great. Who is the king of Reddit? Anything you wanna learn about Reddit? Like, and he has a book. I have it too.

Dana DiTomaso: There.

Talia Wolf: Yep.

Dana DiTomaso: Great tribute forever. Ross was a guest here.

Dana DiTomaso: Oh, in, earlier this year. Anyway, we have a recap post on our website too, but yeah, also fantastic. Actually, no, it was last summer. He was on vacation with his kids in Prince Edward Island, and it was chaos in the background, but he did such a great presentation. So much fun. So yes, that book too. And, and I, so I live in the middle of nowhere, so Talia’s book has not yet [00:56:00] arrived to me, but when it does, it will go back home.

Dana DiTomaso: We’ll go on the shelf too, but I have it. I have it digitally, at least

Talia Wolf: I was just telling Dana that I finally have my own copy. It finally arrived, so I’m happy.

Dana DiTomaso: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right. So thank you so much again for joining me today. I just wanna remind people as well, I mean this isn’t a very emotional appeal, but hey, half of our course, because it is our anniversary and, you know, I gotta say, say like important course.

Dana DiTomaso: Putting together something as enormous as analytics for agencies, which I think turned out to be something like nine hours of videos. All of our templates, our tools, everything we use, and I still use. Every single day when I set up new analytics plans for our clients, it was a huge amount of effort. And so it is something where people worry and think, you know, it’s like 9 79 usually.

Dana DiTomaso: I dunno if I can afford that. So half off this week, but also part of the, what we give to the community and part of, you know, our own emotional targeting is. You join the [00:57:00] community, you can ask questions of me directly, which I will answer about any analytics problems that you run into. We have biweekly office hours.

Dana DiTomaso: I always find that part so interesting because that’s almost like real time research on what people are struggling with. And some of the blog posts that we create come out of those conversations, which in turn help market the courses. So you know, again, like having a customer community of some kind can also be a really helpful sense of source of research.

Dana DiTomaso: So. Purchase analytics for agencies become part of our customer community. Help me create more blog posts. All right, everybody. So that’s for this week. All right, our next webinar is gonna be on August 19th. We don’t have it published yet ’cause I’m still finalizing the guest. But if you follow the Kick Point Playbook, uh, company page on LinkedIn, I will also, automatically email or I’ll invite everyone who attended this webinar to that next webinar. So you’ll get notified once it’s live. And of course, watch your email for the replay Tally’s workbook. Our reminder of our sale happening this week. And if you don’t see that email or you didn’t register, you’re just watching it on LinkedIn, make sure to message me on LinkedIn and I can help you out [00:58:00] and we will see you, uh, in August.

Dana DiTomaso: Thank you again, Talia. This was such a great thank you, uh, conversation.

Talia Wolf: Thank you for having me.