Community Marketing is the Future: Building Connections = Growth [Webinar Recap]

Dana DiTomaso: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome to the Kick Point Playbook webinar. I’m Dana DeTomasso, founder and lead instructor here at Kick Point Playbook. And today I am joined by Erin Simmons. Um, unfortunately Areej was also supposed to join us today. She is the founder of Women in Tech SEO. Erin is the managing director, but Erin and I are going to have a fantastic conversation anyway.
And Areej, I hope you feel better soon. So if you aren’t familiar with Women in Tech SEO, it is a free global community in search marketing and tech. If you are a woman working in search marketing, I do recommend you join, but we’re going to talk about that as we get into it. Today, we’re going to be discussing building community and how, frankly, community might just be the future of marketing.
Please make sure to ask questions in the chat. We’re going to cover those as we go. And if you have to drop out early, we’ll be emailing everyone who registers a recording of today’s session. So let’s get this rolling. I’m going to bring in Aaron. Hey Erin, thanks for joining us. I’m Dana, thanks for having me.
Of course. So, I mean, I would say, you know, why don’t you talk a little bit about maybe your history [00:01:00] up to the moment that you got involved in Women in Tech SEO to give people a basis of like what you did before.
Erin Simmons: Yeah, sure. So I’ve been working in, I started out in analytics, um, so yeah, much like, um, a lot of the stuff that, that I see you putting out into the world, Dana,
Dana DiTomaso: and
Erin Simmons: kind of slowly made my way into general marketing.
So a lot of agencies. a couple of startups. Um, and then, yeah, I had a really nice long stint at, um, an agency for seven years kind of running the agency’s marketing. So that was Sear Interactive. And that, um, I think kind of exposed me to a lot of different things. One being event marketing and there was something about, yeah, being in person that just, especially after the pandemic, that just.
was so powerful to me. And it’s like that, that connection, right. That getting into a room where you feel like you belong. And I think, um, you know, that’s, [00:02:00] to me, those connections are where we as a business really found a lot of our stride, right. And, and found, you know, people to work with and things like that, but also where I just found a lot of like fulfillment.
So I think, um, You know, the first time that I experienced Women in Tech SEO was the culmination of that position and me having an event space and the community, you know, needing a space in the States and wanting to bring the, uh, WTS Fest, which is one of our, uh, yearly conference to, uh, The States. Um, and yeah, it just worked out.
So I just kind of went in that day thinking that I was going to be just running another event. Um, and not that that day would, you know, change, change my life, change the trajectory of my career. And yeah, it was something about being in that room and feeling the power of community that I just was like, this is it.
This is what I want to keep doing. [00:03:00]
Dana DiTomaso: Yeah, I remember I was at that event in Philadelphia, which I remember when, when Areej first told me she was going to have a WTS Fest in North America. I was like, great, please have it be on the West Coast. And she’s like, maybe Denver. And then she says, oh, I’m sorry. It’s gonna be Philly.
Like, oh, it’s so far from me, but fine, I will go. Yeah, and it was the most incredible event. I am so glad that I spent so much time on a flight to get there. Joke for the reason like her flight was shorter than mine. And, and I think I think the definitely like the the power of community is certainly like, obviously, the community that WTS is built is mostly online.
But yeah, I agree that like there is something different when it’s in person, especially if you’ve been to other conferences, the feeling at a WTS Fest is completely different from any other conference. You know, we’ve been to, and actually you and I met at a conference originally, we met when you were working with Sear, uh, at MozCon.
Um, and you got me to record some videos for your, uh, for your thing. Yeah. So, I mean, I would say like even MozCon, which is also a really fun, inclusive conference, still feels completely [00:04:00] different from a women in tech SEO.
Erin Simmons: Can you describe that feeling a little bit? Like what is the difference for you?
Dana DiTomaso: Yeah, I would say that it just feels like frankly, very safe. Yeah, I think because everyone in Women in Tech SEO is so supportive that I think that there is there’s always a level and this is me speaking as someone like I’ve worked for myself for a very long time now. Um, you know, a very bad employee started freelancing in 2000.
So I was like, I saw the writing on the wall. I knew I was going to have to work for myself soon. Um, and I think too, there’s always a little bit, if you’re in a business networking space or a, you know, marketing conference space, or really any kind of space with other people who have similar roles to you, there is a little bit of posturing and like, I’m fine.
Everything’s fine. Everything’s great. Are you great? Oh, you know, I’m We’re just all great. And like, you don’t want to ever make any sort of weakness. Right. Which is like also something that I struggle with personally. as well as admitting like that things may not be perfect, but because everything’s fine all the time.
Right. But I think that in women in tech [00:05:00] SEO, I think that this is a space that people can feel more open and be like, I am struggling with this thing. And I think that that’s where obviously I speak about analytics quite a bit. Um, but when I spoke about analytics, I had people come up to me afterwards who are much more open about their struggles of like learning big query or feeling like, you know, they were stupid, which, you know, I never like it when somebody says that to me, but like that feeling of stupid, cause I can’t get that.
Concept, right? And I feel like that’s the kind of, uh, openness that felt, um, not just like permissive, but like accepted at a Women in Tech Fest, right? That didn’t necessarily exist in other conference spaces.
Erin Simmons: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, I mean, I love hearing you say that, because I think that’s the environment we want to create, right?
Is a place where people, Um, can be vulnerable, right, can let the facade down and can actually say, you know, what they’re feeling. And it is a lot of times, you know, we as people of marginalized gender [00:06:00] do unfortunately get into spaces where we, you know, based on what we’ve learned, but we feel stupid or we feel embarrassed or we feel like we can’t, you know, speak up and things like that.
So to me, I’m hearing you say like, this is a space that you see people, you know, who kind of like. whether the, whether they, that’s something they struggle with or not. Like we are seeing people at least set that down.
I just lost your audio. I think,
Dana DiTomaso: sorry, my fault. I’m muted. Cause I had to type something on my keyboard. Okay. All right. So excited to put the, please make sure to ask questions in the chat. I just wanted to say to everyone watching, please do ask questions in the chat. I can see them and we will definitely incorporate them as we go along.
Okay. So we are getting a little bit of ahead of ourselves because we already talked about women in TechFest, but let’s go back to the origin. of Women in Tech SEO. I mean, obviously, you know, you weren’t there right at the beginning, but I think you got involved pretty early on. So can you speak to, you know, where this came [00:07:00] from and, and how it built from its very origins?
Erin Simmons: Yeah, sure. So it’s actually, I got involved almost like five years into it. It’s pretty amazing when, um, yeah, I kind of look at, at, at the origin and like, where we, like, how our reach got to today. And then also like where we’re, where we’re at right now in sort of this transitional phase and, and where we want to go.
Um, but yeah, I think like any community, um, you know, Areej was feeling, um, a need, uh, uh, a desire to like be in a space where, where she felt a sense of belonging, where she felt the things that you’re saying, where she could ask a question. I mean, one of the things that we say a lot is there are no stupid questions.
And one of the beautiful things that happens in Slack, and I’m sure you’ve seen this, Dana Cuzette, and I see you, you’re all over the analytics chat and you’re, you’re answering questions, you’re asking questions.
Dana DiTomaso: Um,
Erin Simmons: and it’s that, it’s both of that, right? But it’s, it’s asking a question and never getting a response.
That’s like, why don’t you just [00:08:00] Google that? Right. Um, so I think it is that, that sense of belonging and that sense of safety. That, you know, a reach put a tweet out and was like, Hey, like, I’m going to do a meetup. This is, you know. Who I want to see there, this is what I’m thinking, and then people just, it’s, it’s one person being like, this is how I feel, and I feel really deeply about this, and then it’s a bunch of other people being like, I needed you to name that, and that feels right to me, and like, I’m going to join you, and I think, you know, it’s like, you get a meetup, and it’s 15, 20 people, and then, you know, you do another one, and it’s bigger, and you do another one, and then you invite people online, and I think that it’s just, It’s sort of snowballed from there to today,
Dana DiTomaso: where
Erin Simmons: we sit at, um, about 10, 000 people across Slack and the Facebook group.
Um, and there is, yeah, it’s like going from this little group [00:09:00] to realizing you’ve really struck something important that people need and a space that people need because people just keep, even today, people just keep pouring in.
Dana DiTomaso: Yeah, absolutely. I would say there’s always something like after every conference, you always see an influx of new people coming in and not just a Women in Tech SEO conference, like any conference at all.
I remember, um, that, uh, I think at MozCon, like people were aggressively recruiting new people to sign up and be like, Hey, you should join this. You should join this. I think people got tattoos at one conference. Like, it’s just, the whole community is crazy. Yeah.
Erin Simmons: Yeah. We should definitely talk about that at some point, which is just like when the members.
And when the members run the community, I’m starting to see a lot of that.
Dana DiTomaso: We’ll definitely, we’ll definitely get to that too. So let me go back to what I talked about at the beginning with the, you know, and beyond part in the description for Women in Tech SEO, that the global community for Women in Tech SEO and beyond, you know, what is that beyond for you, is it inclusivity, longevity, including as many people as what makes sense, all the [00:10:00] things that are tangentially related to tech SEO, you know, what, uh, what does that mean to you?
Yeah.
Erin Simmons: I think it means all three of those things. It was interesting to hear you say like, like, Longevity because I think it’s that I haven’t thought about that word specifically, but also, yeah, it is including what makes sense. Um, but right now, you know, the name of the community is Women in Tech SEO.
We’re not just for women and we’re not just tech SEO. Um, we have multiple spaces for the community. So we have closed spaces like our Slack group and our WTSFest console. And those closed spaces are for people of marginalized genders, all people of marginalized genders. So that’s women, that’s non binary folks, that’s trans men, it’s gender expansive people.
Like, across the board, right? Um, so we did start as a community, specifically for women, and, you know, we’re expanding. We see, because we, as you do this work, you get more information, you [00:11:00] hear more voices, and you change, you evolve. Communities can’t, that’s the one thing, communities can never stay static.
Like, it’s always going to be changing. You don’t just start a community and, like, walk away, right? Like, it always needs tending, it always needs evolution, it always needs changing. So, you know, this community right now exists of, um, a ton of different people from all different walks of life in these closed spaces, but then we, you know, it’s Tech SEO, but then there’s analytics, there’s paid, there’s social, right?
And then there’s, like, the tangential, like, there’s content, there’s copywriting, there’s, you know, so we get, we’ve started to see It’s organically, there’s a community builder named David Spinks that talks about this a lot, where, and I really love this concept of what emerges from a community, and you kind of have to listen to that, right?
So, as community builders, we, We’re not actually building the community, we’re more containing it, right? And we are, like, tending to it. [00:12:00] So, as these things emerge, we just have to listen, and find the signals, and, you know, cross those, of course, with Like, our values and things of that nature. Um, but yeah, so that’s where we’re at right now.
I think, you know, the community and like trying to communicate that this is a space for all people of marginalized gender in these closed spaces. Knowing that right now our front door doesn’t create that sense of, welcome that we want it to, and we are working on that. So yeah, but then we also have spaces that are open for everybody.
So our, our email, um, our, our email newsletter that goes out weekly, um, is a space where people can, everyone can join. And that’s a way for us to have people join our collective goals, right? So our collective goals are things like edu, excuse me, um, education and opportunities and. We want to expand that out to a greater group of people, and [00:13:00] right now we do that through our newsletter.
Um, we do that through our social media. Everyone can follow our social media. You don’t have to be in the closed group to be a part of this community, right? There’s like multiple ways to do that. So that’s where we’re at today. But our, our goal and our evolution is to make, uh, WTS redundant. And what that means is that eventually these spaces will be open for everyone.
All of our spaces will be open for all people. And we believe. that that hinges on creating a really strong code of conduct. And we think about that as a recipe for belonging. So if we can create a recipe for belonging, built off the voices of the people who felt the least amount of belonging, and we can understand how we use that and how we, you know, leverage that within the community to keep people kind within our values, [00:14:00] right?
Which are kindness, judgment free, right? And it’s like, we can use this. To keep this community space safe, then why can’t we eventually just open it up and have everybody abide by these values and these guidelines and that it sounds, well, it doesn’t actually, it doesn’t sound easy when I say it, but it’s just not sound easy at all.
Yeah, it’s sort of, to me, it is. It’s really important to, because we are not the only folks that are feeling a lack of belonging in this industry, people of marginalized genders. And also, I think there’s a learning aspect there too, over time of having that code of conduct be something that other people practice.
Dana DiTomaso: Well, and that, I was thinking about the Code of Conduct this morning, actually, is, you know, obviously, people put together Code of Conduct all the time for all the different types of communities, and, you know, they’re like, first rule, don’t be a jerk, or whatever, like, funny way they want to put at it. But, I think the Code of [00:15:00] Conduct, obviously, it really defines what a community is.
And so, when you’re going through the Code of Conduct, and when you’re thinking about making changes to it, like, how do you balance that, you know, like, obviously, you know, don’t be a jerk, but what does that actually mean to people, you know? And, and I feel like some communities take the easy route out by writing that and just being like, people will figure out what that means, but the reality is you probably have to be a lot more prescriptive in your code of conduct than you would like to be to make sure that there isn’t, um, any sort of, you know, missed signals, particularly when you’re dealing with people from like around the world with different cultural contexts.
Erin Simmons: Yeah. And I think the code of conduct is, it’s always going to be changing. I think that the values of a community. I don’t know. And I will say, I’ll preface all of this, this whole conversation with, I learn something new every day in community that changes my mind. about something I thought about. And I think that’s one of the most beautiful things is because you get the opportunity to listen to so many voices and get so much information and having [00:16:00] an open mind about letting that change opinions and thoughts and whatever.
So everything I say today may be different tomorrow. Um,
Dana DiTomaso: that’s why we talk about Google Analytics 4. I’m always like, I could be talking about this right now, but 10 minutes from now, it might look different. Yeah.
Erin Simmons: Yeah. Just don’t refresh this page and you’ll be fine.
Yeah.
Erin Simmons: Um, but yeah, so with The Code of Conduct, um, you know, I believe the values right now, like we went through an entire exercise where we were like looking at our, our mission and vision.
And we actually ended up going completely different direction on like, we didn’t even end up calling it a mission or a vision. We kind of came up with our own thing that felt right. But within that we revisited the values and we talked about it and we added things and we took things out, but we didn’t change them.
And to me that exercise felt like. Yeah, these values feel right. Right. And it’s like, they’re very simple. And to a lot of, in a lot of ways, like that simplicity, I [00:17:00] feel like is almost what you’re talking about where it’s like, don’t be a jerk. What does that mean? So I do think we do a lot of work. We have our values and we have our collective goals, right?
So you have, this is how we want to treat each other. This is what, what we’re here to accomplish, you know, while treating each other that way. And then there’s rules. And the rules change and they don’t change as much as they get more information. I think I’ve never, I haven’t seen us. Yeah. I haven’t seen us take a rule away.
I’ve seen us add to rules and I’ve seen us add additional rules. And the rules to me are where we start to start to define what the values mean, right? Like to be kind and to be respectful and to be judgment free, like, Those are those clauses that you see in a lot of code of conducts, which is like, no bullying, right?
Like, no, um, you know, it’s like those really specific things that you have to say [00:18:00] that give people a sense of like, oh, okay, I understand what this means now. So, yeah, I think everything hinges on the code of conduct. I think if you’re building a community, the first thing that you should think about is like, what do you want people to gather around?
Okay. Those are your collective goals. How do you want people to gather around that? How do you want them to show up for each other? Those kind of become your values. And then, I don’t know, maybe at first it’s not about having those like rules, but over time you will find. You know, things that you need to add in, and things that you need to add in for yourself.
Um, you know, as community builders, and things that you need to add in for, like, the community. Um, yeah, and I’ll tell, like, a little short story, because it’s just popping into my head, but, like, we recently added a clause that talked about like speaking about mental health in the community, which is just fucking important.
Sorry, which is just so important.
Dana DiTomaso: It’s okay. You can swear here. We’re not going to get this out. I
Erin Simmons: don’t know [00:19:00] what LinkedIn does on this live. Um, it’s just so important, right? Obviously I think, um, you know, and we, we feel really passionately, I feel really passionately that people take care of their mental health
Dana DiTomaso: and
Erin Simmons: we’re not qualified.
We’re not qualified. It’s dangerous. It’s a slope. And like, you know, it is, it’s, it’s, it does not, within the context of what we’re trying to do here, help us push towards our collective goals. So there’s all these things that stacked up, and it’s like, as community builders, like, that was a, that’s, it’s a very, because we’re not qualified, but we care so much, it becomes a very, like, heavy piece.
Community building is very emotional. Um, so we did add a clause that was like, we basically, you know, we, like, this is not a space where we can do this, but Like, here’s what, like, you know, contact, um, you know, these folks and like, make sure that you are taking care of yourself. So it’s that balance of being like, [00:20:00] maybe it is setting up boundaries that feel really tough and hard sometimes to do.
And, but it’s also like the right thing to do and like guiding people towards the help that is going to support them most.
Dana DiTomaso: Mm hmm. Well, and yeah, I mean, so considering that heaviness that you talked about, we’re running a community is heavy. Like, what do you do for yourself? to make sure you don’t get like sucked into that vortex of heaviness when those sorts of things come up.
That’s a really good question. Or maybe you do and you need to take time out, I’m sure you do, but how do you avoid burnout essentially?
Erin Simmons: Yeah, I think that’s, yeah, that’s tough because it’s also a startup, right? So there’s two of us, um, we get a lot of support from contractors, we get a lot of support from community members just, you know, going out and doing things.
So I do feel like, yeah, there’s been days where we both have to step away from the community And I think, you know, we remind each other that the community members are taking care of each other. And [00:21:00] we remind each other that, like, this is, like, this is okay, right? Like, these things, um, You know, you can kind of start to build your list over time and it’s like, yeah, but that’s our list and we can prioritize that as we see fit and like we, you know, so I think it is stepping away.
Um, I think it’s also having someone to talk with about all of those things and like running this community with the reach like we. we do, we are able to be like, wow, this didn’t feel good. How did this feel to you? And have those, have those conversations quickly, have those conversations openly, um, and have those conversations with, within our values of feeling like, I know when I share a feeling that feels maybe like embarrassing to me, or like, you know, I feel bad about the way that I communicated something.
Um, that I can name that with a region I’m not going to get, like, there’s no judgment there. There’s, and there’s a, not just that, there’s a care, right? And that is also [00:22:00] part of community. So I think it is, um, yeah, I think it is, it is having someone that is, is doing this alongside you, for me, that really allows me to, kind of, Take these things that maybe feel bad and not because I do.
I like the spin. I really like the spin. Um, but that allows me to stop the spin and reset and, you know, be like, I need to take some time or I need to just, you know, reapproach this and kind of put some things into the background.
Dana DiTomaso: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, let’s change gears a little bit. I want to get one of the questions that’s asked.
Um, so unfortunately, this says LinkedIn user because LinkedIn does not show me people’s names all the time, just some of the time. It’s based on your LinkedIn settings. So sorry, LinkedIn user, but they asked, I’d love to know more about turning passive members into engaged advocates. Do you have any insights?
So
Erin Simmons: I think, I think I want to ask you a question, but I don’t know if I can do that. But, um, You can ask [00:23:00] me a question. Well, I think the person who, who, Oh, ask them. Okay. So whoever you
Dana DiTomaso: are, you’re paying attention. Yeah,
Erin Simmons: I think, um, my question for you, and maybe I can, I can just kind of like put this out there and then talk a little bit about it.
But my question to you would be like, is a passive member bad? Like, what is like, do I think communities need both? Um, and I think there is a sense of like, Somebody coming in who maybe has, you know, it’s a lot to Give me one second. I’m just going to clear my phone.
Dana DiTomaso: Yeah. Yeah. It looks like they’re actually posting.
So yes. Yeah. Yeah. So then your question is, you know, is a passive member bad necessarily? So yeah. Go ahead, LinkedIn user. Respond to that. But yeah, keep going. Because I am curious about that.
Erin Simmons: Yeah. So I think that there is, um, And I have this in myself coming from marketing where there’s this idea where it’s like, you have to push, [00:24:00] push someone down a funnel, pull someone down a funnel, like whatever it is, like, you know, and it’s, and it’s all of these things.
And it’s to me, like people show up in our community at different phases of their needs and their career. And I know those phases for myself. And I know the parts of My journey where I would have never, like, if I didn’t, if I didn’t meet Areej and the community members at MozCon, when we also, uh, uh, when Chase Friesman and I were also, you know, bothering you, bothering Areej trying to get people to like do these little videos, right?
If we didn’t put ourselves out there and it’s, honestly, it’s Chase’s, I think has taught me a lot about like just talking to people and asking and like that genuine connection that he can do. If he didn’t do that, if he didn’t make that connection. Um, you know, I don’t know that I would have ever, like, reached for a community like this, um, or a community in general, um, and now it’s, [00:25:00] yeah, it’s, it’s everything in my life, so I think, to me, when somebody comes in, when somebody makes the choice to say, I’m gonna be brave and I’m gonna enter this space, and I don’t quite know, especially a closed space, right, and we’re trying to be more open, what’s behind the door, um, That’s a really scary thing, right?
And it’s sort of like, if you want to, if you want to be passive, um, and I don’t even know if I love the word passive, but if you want to be, if you want to be there and be experiencing this, but not necessarily put yourself forward yet, we want you there. Come on in. Like, you are welcome. And however long that takes, right?
But like, I think there’s this idea in community, I think a lot about like reciprocal relationships. And I do truly believe over time that, you know, if you’re going to be part of a community, it’s give and take. So eventually you do have to give, right? But you have to take first. And there’s a phase that comes before take, and that may just be watching and saying to yourself, do I feel safe here?[00:26:00]
Do I feel like, you know, I can get what I need? Am I, do I even need this space? So to me, like, yeah, it’s, I think I’ve heard this, Set as like, um, lurkers or things like that. Come on in, come on in and lurk and see if this is for you. And if it’s not, you can leave or you can just, you know, leave your account on and come back later or not come back later.
But to me, I don’t feel a strong, uh, sense to pull people into engaged advocates. That being said, I do think there needs to be user journey, like, and that’s where, like, this marketing piece comes into play. Um, I recently heard, um, Sarah, my goodness, her last name is escaping me, from Grow Class, the founder of Grow Class.
Dana DiTomaso: Yeah, I know exactly who you’re talking about, also can’t remember the last name.
Erin Simmons: Yeah, um, but, like, just talk about this path to belonging. So, and the way they think about it is in the first two weeks, they want to open [00:27:00] doors so that you can find a friend. So their goal is, within the first two weeks, to have somebody find a friend.
And I just think that’s so beautiful. But to me, I think that’s about, that’s about opening a bunch of different doors and giving a lot of, like, different paths and options and There’s this thing, so I also belong to another community called Green City Rock, which is, um, the way I use it, and that’s why there’s a drum kit behind me, I’ve been playing for like two years, which is never thought in my late thirties I would pick up an instrument, but, um, there’s this thing we say that it’s, it’s challenged by choice.
So, like, you can create a space, and then you can, you know, make it feel as open and safe as you want, and then, and you create paths, and then people can choose for themselves when they are ready to challenge themselves and go down that path.
Dana DiTomaso: I
Erin Simmons: think I might have gotten away from the question there a little bit.
No,
Dana DiTomaso: no. And I think, I think, but one concept that I think, and by the way, the person who asked the question, uh, was Jenny Bernard from Bright Local, by the way. [00:28:00] Yes. Uh, so yeah, Jenny says my marketing had taken over. I think for sure that that’s part of it is like, yeah, that, that pressure to be like, well, we got to make sure that we hit these, these goals and we’re pushing people through the funnel and I think to, even to relate it to, to analytics for a moment, cause that’s apparently all I do in my life.
is thinking about the idea and talking when I do workshops about GA4, talking to people about how it’s okay that these people were just reading this content and not continuing on because that’s also part of the journey. And if a community was only active members, it would be a lot, you know, it’s a lot.
Yeah. And I think it is also an important point too, to have people when they first come in, to take that backseat and to read. And it’s where I think where people make missteps in communities is when they join, you know, a new Slack workspace and they immediately start broadcasting, Hey, look at my stuff.
Look at my stuff. Um, yeah. Yeah, so I think that that’s, that’s important to take that, you know, backseat for sure. Oh, and Jill says that the last name we were looking for was Stockdale.
Erin Simmons: Yes, [00:29:00] Stockdale. Thank you, Jill.
Dana DiTomaso: Absolutely. Okay. So next question here from the group. Let’s see. Claire asks, If a brand is thinking they want to start thinking about building a community, where should they start?
Okay,
Erin Simmons: I’m going to read this because I just got excited that Claire was there and my mind went blank. Brand is thinking that they want to start. Thinking about, okay, so I don’t think you should build a community if you’re just starting to think about it. I think you should join communities. Um, and I think, you know, it is for a business, it’s hard for me to think about communities, um, from just a brand perspective because communities require people, right?
So I think when I think about this question, I think like the people in the brand need to understand what communities are to be able to decide what the best move is for the brand. So I think it would [00:30:00] be, you know, like if you’re considering communities, that could be going out and seeing like, is there a community?
that exist for the thing that I want to do, right? So is there a community for people of marginalized gender in tech and marketing? Because this is something that’s really important to me. It’s finding that seed of like, what’s really important, not just to your brand, but to the people in your brand. So there’s a lot of like values, uh, crossing and things like that, that I think, um, are important to think about.
And then I think it’s going out and seeing, does that exist in some form? And if it does, it’s joining that and engaging in that. I think another really important thing is to just have communities in your life. It’s to have, like, music is a, is something that’s just so important to me. And like, finding Rain City Rock was a big part of that, right?
So it’s like, when you sit down at your computer, if you’re looking, you know, as a, as an agency, as a tech company to build a brand, when you sit down behind your computer, what are the things that are stressing you out? What are the things where you’re like, [00:31:00] man, I could really use support around this, or I could really, or I’m just, I’m spinning on this.
And it’s like, those are the things that probably a lot of, maybe they’re unspoken, but probably a lot of people around you, maybe your customers, right? Are, are feeling that as well. So I think it’s finding those things where it’s like, I need this, or I know people need this. So if you’re just thinking about it from your customer perspective, it is, you got it.
Go to events, talk to people, go into communities, talk to people, like, what are those, and that’s marketing, that’s like basic marketing research, right, but it’s thinking about it from a different lens, so, yeah, I think it is, it’s exploring communities before you think to build yours. Because communities are
so much work, so much work, right? And like all of this is so much work, but it’s, but it’s also, it’s very important work. And I think it’s something that you said [00:32:00] earlier, which is like, some people will just jump in and just, I’m just going to DM, DM everybody my, um, You know, like all of these offers that I have and, you know, all of these building exchanges.
Yes, yes, exactly. And that exists and is important too, right? And it’s that if you really truly want to create a community where you can connect one on one with your customers, I think you go and you find communities that exist where your customers are today. And you, and you, and you, maybe you sit, you’re passive, right?
And then maybe you start to ask questions. But I do think it’s not something that is like, Okay, this is on the checklist. Gotta build a community. Um, here’s my, you know, my, here’s, you know, Aaron sends 10 steps to building a community. Um, I do think there’s a level of understanding if you want to truly build something that people are, are going to feel connected to.
And to me, community is about connection and belonging.
Dana DiTomaso: I
Erin Simmons: feel like that was a little bit of a non answer. Sorry, Claire.
Dana DiTomaso: [00:33:00] No, you are, I think you are giving perfectly good answers. I’m sure that Claire will agree. Um, you know, and it actually makes me think too, cause obviously at, at Kick Point, Playbook, like when you purchase a course, you’re in our community.
Um, and the community is really, I would say like help focused in terms of you problem, you’re stuck in a video, a client has done something weird and you don’t know what to do about it. Or like, or a lot of it too is me just saying, Hey, there was a change in GA4, here’s what you need to know, you know? So for that kind of community, you know, how do you How do we, you know, tell our students, really try to explain, like, this is what our community is about and, and have that community in that focus sort of way, in terms of, like, this is the goal of our community versus, you know, like, yeah, there can be lurkers, but it is really helpful if you post your questions, because I’m sure that other people as well also have these questions and don’t feel comfortable posting.
Like, how do you, you know, get people to do that?
Erin Simmons: Yeah, I think it is. So it’s like, it’s having You know, we started calling our collective goals, which is in our code of conduct. [00:34:00] Um, And those collective goals are, gosh, am I going to get them all right? Education. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll look them up if I have to.
Education. We want to provide education. We want to provide opportunities. Um, we want to provide connection, right? That’s so important. And when you hear, like I hear connection, right? And it’s just like, this is what, like, we’re, I was told coming up, you know, um, got a network, you got a network, you got a network, that word.
It’s not, you create connections, you create relationships, right? So like we have these. These things that we are putting out there in a code of conduct and saying like, these are our collective goals. The thing is, not a lot of people read the code of conduct, right? So it’s constantly communicating it. It is repeating over and over again as like community managers, what are the goals here?
It’s reminding people in their context of the [00:35:00] questions they ask that like, Hey, we understand that this is like. You know, a really important question and And then this feels bad sometimes and I, you know, but we have to do this, but it’s like we understand and It’s not part of our collective goals. This is not a space for this This is important and like this is not a space for this.
So it’s that reminder at a high level We’ll put it out in announcements Um, our Code of Conduct, we talk about through the festivals, it’s on the screens, it’s everywhere. We post it and talk about it everywhere. But then it’s also, it’s what you’re saying about, it’s what the members do. So it’s the members asking questions, it’s the members answering questions, there’s this beautiful thing that happens.
Um, In introductions, where it’s just like, if you go into the introductions channel, and Areej will just tag all of the new members once a week and be like, hey, drop an introduction, um, and if you go into that channel, it’s like, some of these, you know, [00:36:00] there’s like, 3, 4, 5, 6, like, comment after comment, welcoming people in, right?
And showing them that they’re welcome here. And then somebody asks a question and it’s comment after comment in this thread, trying to help them, you know, figure it out. Like, Hey, I need more information or, Ooh, I’ve been there before. Here’s what I did. Uh, here’s what I think could work. So it’s that show too, that community members do, that I think is really important.
So it is important to have engaged members, like you’re saying.
Dana DiTomaso: Yeah. But I think that, I think what Reach does now, I never actually really thought about that before, like saying that every week and saying, here’s the new people who have joined, people don’t necessarily post introductions until they’ve been tagged to do that.
And then it almost feels like she’s giving them permission to post if they haven’t felt like they’ve had. permission up to that point. It’s like, okay, now we, you’re here. We really want to hear from you and not everybody posts an introduction. That was totally okay. But I find that a lot of people do for sure.
I would say at least probably half. Other people on that list every week end up posting an introduction.
Erin Simmons: Now [00:37:00] I’m like, should I open Slack Analytics Workspace so we can check this out?
Dana DiTomaso: Well, you can write, you write like a post about it later. When you talk about like stats of the community or something, I would be curious to see how many people do like publish an introduction after, you know, being encouraged to do so.
Erin Simmons: Yeah. Oh yeah, I did see, I think I dropped you a number. I was like, do you know you, you’ve sent so many thousand messages in Slack? It’s, and it’s fun to
Dana DiTomaso: see that, right? I was like, wow, I’m chatty. I also though, because I am, because I’m an old person, I tend to have in my mind, and this is just absolutely a function of age and like how long I’ve been using computers.
I think about character limits, even though they don’t really exist anymore. And I’m always like, that’s why I hit new line a lot when I’m writing messages. I’m just like, this is the end of the sentence, hit enter, not. period. So my messages count in Women in Tech SEO Slack might be a little bit inflated because of how I write.
Yeah.
Erin Simmons: That’s interesting too, because I think a lot about analytics with like, I have an analytics background, right? I have a marketing brain, [00:38:00] right? It’s like, it is and that catches me. I mean, it’s what Jenny said in the comment, right? Which is like, Oh, maybe this is my marketing brain. So many times. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve said, like, CTA and Nareej has been like, just stop.
Um, but it is, it’s, it’s what you just said. It’s the nuances of people that make analytics challenging in communities, right? Because I can’t just look at all of that and be like, Oh, here are our most engaged members based on how many chats they’ve sent. Um, and obviously there’s like, you know, there’s things to do, like, how long have they been in the community?
Can we normalize this number? But at the end of the day, like, we’re not, well, one, we can’t. Um, two, we wouldn’t go in and see, like, You know, like how many, like, what does this conversation look like? Right. And like, people are so different that, yeah, it’s very hard to, which can be a challenge as a brand that wants to bring on community.
It’s very hard [00:39:00] to have. Uh, in a lot of ways have like CEO KPIs.
Dana DiTomaso: Well, and the other thing too, is you don’t necessarily know people’s situations in terms of the amount they’re able to contribute, you know? Like I don’t have kids, you know, I work from home, my ability to have Slack open and check it on a semi regular basis is, you know, part of my circumstance.
Right. And, and certainly someone who is like, you know, I have 18 seconds to look at this in between things like, Oh, that was really interesting. I don’t have time to contribute. I wouldn’t want them to necessarily, you know, feel bad. about their inability to contribute because it’s just a function of their life circumstances, which might change.
in the future, you know?
Erin Simmons: Yeah. And are they contributing in their own way, right? It’s not font. That’s the other thing. And there’s not one
Dana DiTomaso: way to contribute. Yeah.
Erin Simmons: And it’s not quantity. Like it’s always going to be quality because you can send a million messages, but I know this is not you, but you can send a million messages and you could just be DMing people like offers, right?
Um, yeah, that’s interesting. I like that.
Dana DiTomaso: So speaking of growth and [00:40:00] everything else, so what is your balance, you know, when you’re thinking about your balance between letting the community grow by itself and guiding where you want the community to go, you know, how do you balance, you know, between listening to what members want and predicting what they want when they may not even know what it is that they want and versus, you know, waiting for them to ask you for what they need, like what is their balance there?
Erin Simmons: Yeah, yeah, I think that’s That almost feels like a challenging question, but I think I have, uh, and maybe that’s because I’m, I’m still thinking through like, what is that balance? Because to me, how do I want to talk about this? There are things that people ask for that aren’t in line with our collective goals.
There are things that people ask for that maybe are, but we just, we’re a two person team. Right, running a 10, 000 person community with five conferences next year. Um, we’re gonna, like, we’re [00:41:00] gonna crush all that. And also, like, yeah, it is, you know, it is, it’s, there’s a, it can feel hard to, Say, well, we have to have a prioritization here when you are having people be like, here’s my feelings.
Here’s my thoughts Here’s my needs right and thinking about the community as a whole. I think this is something I Actually now I’m remembering I did with when I did a lot of social media like Sometimes the loudest voice is the one that feels the strongest, right? Or like the voice that comes to you. It doesn’t even have to be the loudest, but it is this practice of stepping back when you get that voice and thinking like, okay, this person is trying to tell me something.
What are they trying to tell me? How do I dig in here? How do I ask questions? And then how do I also step back and look at the community as a whole and look at the goals and what we’re trying to do and how we’re trying to shape this community and make sure all of these things are aligned because And then how do I look at all of the things that are on our list, right?
Or all the things we want to do to [00:42:00] support this community. It’s a better way to look at it. And where do, where do we slot this? So I think it becomes this exercise of like, there’s emotion and it is kind of having that feeling, stepping back, having that practice and then being able to, yeah, figure out, is this something we can do or not?
And a lot of times the answer is we can’t. And like writing those messages, you know, it’s, it’s getting easier for me as I find my groove. But writing those messages can be really challenging because people are being vulnerable with you and like sharing with you one of their needs. And you, and a lot of times I have to say no.
Um, yeah. So it’s finding, I think, and with that, like, there are times where I have to write messages where I go and I look back at our values. And I just, yeah, like I just ground myself in that and I, you know, is this message kind? Is this message, um, you know, respectful? Is it judgment? Am I speaking from my experience and not, you know, making assumptions based on what this person has told me?
Dana DiTomaso: Yeah, and I think that [00:43:00] that’s really like having that level of prescription in those rules. I think it really helps that they give you the freedom to be able to respond. you know, appropriately, right? Yeah. Yeah. It’s something where, um, you know, I just thought of something I was talking on a podcast, um, the SEO Mindset Podcast.
Yeah. Yeah. And so I was speaking to them and they asked me about, you know, working with them. Working with ADHD and one of the things that I talked about is the idea of having a routine because that gives you the Structure to be able to have that creativity in your day and the same thing too with the rules like the rules give you The structure in order to you know reflect on them But also it gives you the freedom to be able to respond in a way that that is So if your rules are too vague, like don’t be a jerk I keep coming back to that then it’s too hard to know how to answer something and so it leaves a lot of ambiguity Um, versus having more prescriptive rules that people might say, like, why do you have so many?
Well, there’s a reason for it. And this is, this is the reason right now.
Erin Simmons: This is the reason. And yeah, it’s the experiences over time of being like, because this works, um, it may feel strict, but it, but it works and I [00:44:00] think, yeah, you just touched on this with the routine piece. A routine is a practice, right?
And to me, me going and opening up our code of conduct. You know, every day, every day, like the Code of Conduct is, I’m sure it’s open on a tab right now, one of the 27 tabs that are open right now, but opening that up and filtering my Thoughts and like hold it. And like my, yeah, like what’s going on in me at that time and what I’m trying to figure out through that lens.
But that’s a practice to me. Values are a practice, routines are a practice. And the more you do that practice, the more it embeds. I do think over time, maybe, I don’t know, I don’t know though, because it’s been over a year and I’m still open in that. But I do think over time those things just become, That’s how we, that’s how we, you know, change biases.
That’s how we change habits is, is we practice these things. So my hope is, over time, me having these hard conversations, that these [00:45:00] things that feel hard to type out, they just, they start coming very naturally and they start becoming second nature to me. And that’s what I want, because I believe in these values so much.
Dana DiTomaso: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. Okay, so just thinking about time and coming up towards our last few questions, So I’m gonna jump back to a question that Claire asked earlier. She’s very chatty today. So Claire. Claire, by the way, if people don’t know who she is, She’s obviously a huge fan of Women in Tech SEO, also fantastic local SEO, and we both know her quite well, which is why We’re joking.
Yes. Uh, so Claire asks, if you have time, would you be interested in your experience of brands jumping on the idea of community building, community marketing, and wanting to monetize this? Can there be a balance between doing the doing good angle and profit?
Erin Simmons: Yeah, we are a social enterprise. We are profitable business.
And like part of running this business is showing the industry, showing ourselves that we can do good. [00:46:00] and be profitable and, you know, and like be able to have this be this, this is to this community. In addition to all of the, you know, the, the roles that, and the opportunities that are created through for our members, right?
Like our WTS knowledge, we pay every writer, we pay, um, our brilliant, um, editor, Hannah Smith, like we, like all of these roles, Like, we don’t want people working, right, working, doing that labor for free.
Dana DiTomaso: Um,
Erin Simmons: And that’s a statement to the industry. We’re not going to do the labor for free, right? Like we, these are full time jobs, so we have to monetize.
And this is a business. Um, but it’s also like, then the balance, right. Is like, okay. We need to make sure that we are continually learning, like, are we doing good, right? I think you’re doing good. And, you know, we do, [00:47:00] it’s complicated, uh, feelings about this, but like that meant that we, you know, went after B Corp and we are now B Corp certified business.
Um,
Erin Simmons: we are a, there’s a couple of things in our footer that you can see, like we’re certified social enterprise in, in the UK. Um, we are planet for Yeah, maybe just look at the footer, uh, but these are, and yeah, this is the, uh, the, the settling in of, um, yeah, the chaotic brain, but I do think it is, it’s, so there’s a balance there that you have to find, um, but in terms of, like, monetizing a community, um, or monetizing doing good in general, um, I think there can be, um, I think there can be, um, Yeah, I think there can be this sense of shame around that sometimes, this sense of guilt around that sometimes, because it’s like you are providing a service that is actually kind of a need.
Like [00:48:00] there’s, I mean, belonging is on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, right? Belonging is a, is a, and yeah, and it also is labor. So both of those things can be true. Um, And I think then it’s also a matter of monetizing in a way that feels in line with values. So right now, our business is monetized, um, through a couple of different revenue streams.
One being, like, conference tickets. And also sponsors, right? So like, and you know, our goal, our dream, we want, we want, we have a lot of scholarship tickets right now. If you’d like to buy a scholarship ticket, uh, head to our website. Um, just a little marketing plug in there. That’s the CPA. But, um, we want that, we want that festival to be free.
We want them to all to be scholarship tickets. And we do that through our partners and our, um, are, um, sponsors and we pick partners and sponsors based on the overlap of values and collective [00:49:00] goals. So it’s not just having someone come in and be like, here’s a bunch of money, put our logo there, do this, do that.
You’re not going to get value out of our community. You need somebody that’s going to be, that you need a person, you need people, you need people that are going to come in and show up and do that overlap of those collective goals. So we have a lot of like really brilliant partners that will come in and they’re like, okay, that collective goal, opportunities, we can do that.
We have a, we have a podcast. We have, uh, um, we have writing opportunities. We have jobs, right? Like we have jobs that need filling and it’s that overlap. It’s that give take. So like, it is like, yeah, you’re going to pay to be a part of this and to have this, um, you know, this ability to like reach this community in a different way, in a more amplified way.
Um, And what you’re amplifying does need to be, [00:50:00] it needs to benefit you and it needs to benefit community members. And that like intersection is so important when thinking about like revenue streams in my opinion.
Dana DiTomaso: So have you ever said, and you can feel free not to answer this, have you ever said no to a sponsor who has come in?
Erin Simmons: I think I’m, I, yeah,
Dana DiTomaso: yeah.
Erin Simmons: I haven’t personally.
Dana DiTomaso: Yeah. But
Erin Simmons: everybody should have said yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. See, I think that that’s, that’s
Dana DiTomaso: interesting too, is just like really. being picky about who the sponsors are. Sometimes you have to say no.
Erin Simmons: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that again is like just another hard thing, right?
Because it is, I mean, this is a startup, like we are,
Dana DiTomaso: it’s
Erin Simmons: a bootstrap business. Right. But like, yeah. Um, and I think I sort of, when I think about that too, I just believe, yeah, the little compromises, um, To me, and this is how it just like, I work, like I make a little compromise and I’m like, Oh, I did that.
That felt okay. And [00:51:00] maybe I’ll make a little bit bigger. It’s just too slippery of a slope for me. So I do really, yeah. I love going back to that code of conduct. I love going back to like, what are we actually trying to do here? I think a practice that I’m working on right now is like, you get that little feeling in your stomach.
Um, and I, it’s the A DH adhd. I’m very impulsive. I’m like, what’s your idea? That sounds great. Let’s do this . Right? But it’s like, yes. When as I’m saying that I might be getting a little ping in my stomach that I’m just like, well, no. I already said yes, so let, let’s just go with it. I can go back and change my mind now.
I already
Dana DiTomaso: said yes. Yeah,
Erin Simmons: and it’s a practice of maybe taking that space, but it’s also a practice of being like, I’m not always gonna take that space ’cause that’s not how my brain works, and I can change my mind.
Dana DiTomaso: That’s, yeah, that, that whole saying asked my, uh, when I did go on the SEO Mindset Podcast, I asked my business partner, like, tell me some things that are good and bad about my ADHD, since you work with me so much.
She’s like, yeah, you say yes to everything, which is great and also horrible. So yeah. Yeah. And it can be both good and
Erin Simmons: bad. I think that’s, yeah. The other thing too, [00:52:00] that’s really been a struggle. Yeah. The black and white thinking comes up in that brain as well for me. And it is being like, no, it can be both these things.
Dana DiTomaso: So as we finish off here, um, what are some things that you’d want people to take away from, like, what, what do you want to promote, you know, in terms of people joining the community or if people aren’t, um, necessarily, you know, a member of the community or can’t become a member of the community, you said sign up for the newsletter and whatnot, but what do you want to promote right now?
Obviously your scholarships, but what else?
Erin Simmons: Yeah, so I think, um, yeah, before I talk about WTS, I think what I would want to promote is Um, I think for me, finding community has changed my life, and it’s, it’s WTS, it’s Rain City Rock, um, it’s, I have, and it can be of any size, right? Like, I have, like, a seven person WhatsApp group.
Co working community with a bunch of my friends, and it’s just, you know, and we have a cute little it’s we call it co working with queers And we have like cute little things and we make like little [00:53:00] like Canva cards, and it’s just like but it’s just for us And it’s a need that we have to you know sit together and even though we’re not working on you know specifically things that Overlap, we just we have we all have this sense of You you know, sitting at our desks and being remote and things like that.
And then we all just have this sense of community and like how we connect as friends, how we connect as a queer community. And it’s that, you know, overlap to me that’s really beautiful. So all of that is to say, um, what I would advocate for most for anyone listening is to find, um, you know, find, find people that, that make you feel like you belong, find people that make you feel comfortable.
Like Yourself, um, and that kind of can drop some of that, it’s dropping the facade that you talked about earlier. where you’re like, yes, everything’s great. Everything’s fine. Right. But it’s, it’s feeling comfortable enough to share. Um, [00:54:00] and yeah, things aren’t always, things aren’t always fine. There’s always going to be something going on.
Right. And like being comfortable enough to have some of that vulnerability. And that might sound like right now where you are at, like, no, thank you. And that’s okay too. Um, but I would say like the thing I would advocate for most is community. And if you have a community, but you haven’t tended to it, right.
Like if you know a space, That it’s a bookstore. It’s a church, right? It’s a, it’s like, if you have these third spaces is really what it is, where you’ve felt a sense of belonging and you haven’t been there in a while, maybe go see what, see what’s going on, that being said. Sponsor us, uh, join our community.
Um, but no, it’s, it is, come to our website, see what we’re about, right? Like we have, um, especially knowing right now that we are, are, um, You know, a space that is changing, right? Like, there is, we’ve had, um, we’ve worked with the wonderful Tasman Lofthouse. We just [00:55:00] blurt all of these, like, very verbose things, and Tasman sends this beautiful copy back that just feels so like us.
So we’ve recently updated quite a few pages, including our join page, if you want to go and kind of just see, see what’s, take a look what’s behind the curtain. You know, you can kind of see that. Follow us on social, join our email list. Like, if the, if the Slack space, you know, I don’t know if I’m not ready for that, then listen to that, right?
You don’t have to go in there right now, but yeah, come check us out, see what we’re all about. Um, we have, uh, if you’re a business and you are looking for, and your customer base is Um, you know, really smart, engaged marketing tech workers who are just out there wanting to help, um, founders, uh, business owners, agency owners, freelancers, like, we just have so many people.
There are many folks in this community that have like real needs and if your services provide them Values that they need to succeed in their career [00:56:00] like we’d love to talk to you So that’s you know become a WTS partner, an exhibit, or sponsor at one of our five conferences this year So we have, we ran three last year We’re running five WTSFests this year, so that’ll be
Dana DiTomaso: London.
Several different countries too, like this is, this is an undertaking.
Erin Simmons: Yeah, well we did Portland for you because you’ve been asking for the West Coast. Yes, I
Dana DiTomaso: appreciate that, thank you
Erin Simmons: so much. We will definitely see you there. Yeah, if the date doesn’t work for you, let us know, we’ll change it. But um, yeah, so we’ll do in London, we’re doing Portland, Oregon, we’re doing Berlin again.
Can’t wait to go back to Berlin, talk about that whole city as a community. It’s just, yeah, the feeling there. Um, we are doing, we’re going to do Philadelphia again, and then we are looking to do Melbourne, Australia at the end of the year.
Dana DiTomaso: That is great. Yeah. Well, so, all right, gonna have to end it here.
Thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. I hope that people took a lot away about community, uh, in this [00:57:00] conversation. And so, before we end things off, I just want to know our next webinar. So December. We’re taking December off because our, when it happens around Christmas technically, so we’re just going to take December off entirely.
So our next webinar is going to be January 21st with Crystal Carter from Wix. And Crystal’s also going to be talking about a little bit about community, but in terms of generated content. So subscribe to our newsletter for updates and get a link to that when we publish that webinar, which will also be on LinkedIn and on YouTube.
So thank you everyone so much for coming to today’s webinar. Aaron, thank you so much for joining us. I really feel better soon. And, uh, we will see you back here in January.
Erin Simmons: Thanks so much, Dana.